Tackling RevOps: Data Silos and Product-Led Growth Strategies

GTM Tales: Kanako from Smarter X

Ivor: [00:00:00] So

hello everyone and welcome to GTM Tales.

As you will hopefully know by now, GTM Tales is a podcast about sharing the stories that have led to growth in B2B. And following on from the episode from Leon from Time Doctor, this is our fourth episode and today I'm really pleased to have Kanako. He's a RevOps guru  

Ivor: So Kanako, can you please, um, start with like a introduction and give us a bit of detail about your background. And I think before when we had the first chat, you shared how you transitioned from Japan to the US. It'd be really good to get that [00:01:00] context from yourself.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. Um, so yeah, I've been in the revenue operations roles over about 10 years already, but I actually started my career, the very first part of a career back in Japan, where I'm from. I started my career as a recruiter, fun fact. Um, and then I decided to go to the NBA. Where I started realizing that recruiting is actually sales and marketing.

That recruiting was all about having a certain process. To, to, you know, bring in the repeatable success in the recruiting and hiring practice, but also we are selling the dream, so to speak, the work and the great company, great industry, that kind of things, especially in Japan, we don't really switch jobs very much.

So it's like finding the right place to work is [00:02:00] very critical. I mean, think about it. If you spend eight hours a day. In a work environment, that's a one third of the day. If you walk into the wrong door, your life is. So yeah, you need to pick the right place to go. And I was very, um, happy to work in the recruiting to, you know, educate people that my industry is great place to work.

My company is the top, you know, best place to work, that kind of thing. And when I was in that role, I didn't really realize it, realize it. But when I was going through the MBA program, taking different courses, I started realizing that. Oh, I was actually doing sales in the marketing, actually a lot in the marketing too, and also recognize that there were a lot of operational processes behind the scene.

So that's where I started gaining interest in marketing and the sales in conjunction with operation. And since then rev ups.[00:03:00]

Ivor: Fun fact as well, for me, I actually started one of my first roles was in HR as well and recruiting and yeah, I saw that, um, comparison as well, instead of perhaps, uh, selling and talking about a product and the service of the business. You actually, the company is that product right in recruiting and you're presenting that to the candidates, which could be linked to, yeah, connected to a prospect, for example.

So yeah, that's, that's super interesting.

Kanako: Mm hmm.

Ivor: I'd be curious to dive into your current role now and yeah, what you're working on and how you perhaps approach. Go to market and one of the topics that I think was interesting that we wanted to dive into was the, um, managing data silos and preventing data silos.

So, [00:04:00] um, if you could give an introduction to what you do now, and then we can maybe dig into that and peel the layers back.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. So my current company is smarter X and we offer software solution for retailers and manufacturers around the data of the products that retailers carry on behalf of manufacturers that involves a lot of data piece and also from the GDM perspective. It involves a lot of database. Um, so that's where I, um, carry a lot of, um, weight in my work to make sure that we, um, we provide a good customer experience for both sides of the parties from like a data availability to complete their job, but also.

You know, complete our side of the job from, you know, having the product sign up all the way [00:05:00] to getting the billing done. You know, at the end of the day, we also need to make money as a company. So that, that whole journey for customer journey is where I'm overseeing right now. And yes, data silo. Um, I never seen the companies who say they don't have data silo.

So I really hope someone really fixed this problem, problem like this. But yeah, we, we like, like any other companies, we have data silo issue. Um,

Ivor: [00:06:00] Um,

Kanako: have resources allocated to You know, accommodate a data pipeline building. Um, so that's that's exact exact project.

I'm working on right now. Um, because right now I'm the one looking at the product data. Um, you know,

Ivor: Silence.

Kanako: and everything and then push the communication out. Look, this is not going to be sustainable. Like, what if I get hit by a bus tomorrow? Scratch that.

That's too negative. What if I win the lottery tomorrow that I don't have to work?

Ivor: I don't know.

Kanako: This company still needs to keep running. And I take a huge pride in that. I need to build a process and data architecture that runs without me. is what I'm trying to achieve here. Um, before I go too far tangent, I'm going to pause here.

Did I answer your question?

Ivor: and think [00:07:00] if you did get hit by a bus, I think there'd definitely be bigger problems. Outside of a data silos there.

I guess what I'd like to actually ask , what are the some common issues that you typically see Um, across data silos and how can they be prevented perhaps? And what's your experience with that?

Kanako: Yeah, the common data silos I've seen before, uh, I think the GTM part of the data set are becoming more consolidated. Well, we still have a lot to, you know, go. Obviously, like it's like between marketing and sales, for example, you know, marketing still tends to think about lead or users or that kind of like individual level while sales usually in a b2b thinks, you know, like a unit as company or [00:08:00] maybe department, you know, depending on the contract structure they are going after, but Not like individual level.

I mean, it's B2B, right? So that's, that's definitely one area, but still, I think We are getting to some level of alignment, um, between marketing and sales or sales in the CS for that matter. What I sometimes struggle is that GTM part of the data set may not have good focus product data because it's a comprehensive data.

Different database, right? Like salesforce and product. Yeah. So that may not really hooked up very well. And it's, I'm not just talking about data visibility and product data visibility into salesforce, but more about like fundamental level of like how these kind of like communicate each other and almost like how, how product data should be matched up to salesforce data, that kind of things.

That's definitely one. I don't think I've seen a [00:09:00] couple of times, and this is what I'm learning right now is.

Ivor: seed pods will

Kanako: You can data, especially the contract data at the end of the sales cycle, as well as a good entire journey of CS, financial management and finance data or accounting. Please, yeah, from accounting perspective, they may have a completely different way to see, um, how the invoice should be issued.

How the, you know. Um, account receivable needs to be resolved or what have you that kind of things And they may not completely align with how the sales CRM, you know account architecture is set up Yeah, the common thing is, Oh, yes, we have one contract,

Ivor: Go

Kanako: the two departments.

Ivor: them.

Kanako: could be one account, one contract, one account, one contract.

Invoicing [00:10:00] may be a little bit more granular in that sense. The other side of the house, more complicated thing that, um, again, I'm not finance person or finance ops person. So that's probably me, but when you may have multiple accounts or multiple contract, you know, say per department, but from accounting perspective, they may want to roll everything up under one big company umbrella, like that's where the definition of these comes in.

Like what is company in that database? Where is a car in this database? And then it's not just like how the data should be from technology perspective, how it can be connected, but how we want to see these. Cause you can show you that data architecture impact reporting, right? And then the data architecture impact how the data comes in, and that impacts eventually the human process piece as well.

So that's, that's what I [00:11:00] see, like, I'm not saying like, GTM part of the data silo having completely fixed, I wish that's the word, not yet. But now the GTM dataset is connected beyond the GTM piece. Or in ingesting data from somewhere other than GTM tech stack, the silo issue is becoming more and more, you know, bigger issue beyond GTM theme of beyond the

Ivor: And I actually think that issue of, um, the silos is probably going to continue to get worse. I mean, there are so many SAS applications nowadays, and it's never been easier to create a SAS platform. And so you've got all of these great applications that do such a great job for. A specific vertical. And that is something that we're seeing more [00:12:00] is, uh, the growth and the rise of more vertical platforms.

So not only for marketing, but for marketing teams in real estate, for example. And so I think there's. Issue might actually, um, begin to, to get worse. And it's interesting that you talk about these specific silos in GTM. And if I get, if I got this correctly in GTM and then product, and then also accounts, and so I guess that seems to be an issue that you're experiencing.

And what are you doing to actually solve that right now? So our listeners, if they're experiencing the same issues can, can learn from, um, yeah, your approach to that. Yeah.

Kanako: so I cannot do that. Um, [00:13:00] I think to me, it's, um, a bit of a trial and error. Yeah. And testing how everything works out. Um, yeah, so my current company smart X is very small and mighty nimble team.

So we don't always have, you know, all the resources from like, you know, human perspective to handle everything and to make everything, you know, top notch. And also we are startups, so we are evolving ourselves. So the process we may be, we may have built yesterday, you know, last quarter, or what have you.

may not be relevant anymore, or may need to be updated, so it keeps changing too. So, I always take the approach of, first, try with like, kind of like manual process to fully understand how it should work out, and then start, like, kind of like taking out what piece can be automated,

Ivor: [00:14:00] Okay.

Kanako: for the time being.

Ivor: uh,

Kanako: so that's the one area. So for that matter, you mentioned like a spreadsheet data staging previously, like I'm not.

Ivor: to

Kanako: against that approach. I would do it initially and start figuring out what kind of process, what piece of work can be automated with, say, 80, 90 percent of accuracy. What are the common outliers, exceptions? You know, how can we handle that kind of things? So our human focus goes into exception handling and something that are more difficult to automate.

For the V2 launch, V3 launch, and [00:15:00] then gradually we remove these human manual process elements out of the scope as much as possible. That's how I've been approaching it. Well, if someone else has a better approach, I'd love to learn that because, you know, I'm doing a lot of clicks.

Ivor: it makes sense. And yeah, I think in a, in the startup world, you're definitely not alone with being strapped for resources. And there's a famous quote from Paul Graham, one of the founders of Y Combinator, he said, you know, in the beginnings, just do things that don't scale. And I'm also a big believer in, I agree with slowly improving the process and automating parts of it.

And I think something that's super important for startups is to focus on solutions. If there are any out there that you're considering that are just very to set up and not only quick, but also, um, don't [00:16:00] take any resources from yourself to actually get started and, um, trial out. And you know, that way you could actually utilize and benefit from a bunch of different solutions with, um, a low risk, um, manner.

So speaking of strategies, um, let's talk a little bit. More about the shift towards products that growth, I believe you shared some insights there before, and I'd be interested to understand how product that growth has changed the way you approach GTM operations. Um, and yeah, share a little bit about your experience there and some growth stories would be great.

Kanako: Yeah, um, CloudG has been an interesting trend that I've been following. eyeing on, um, and, um, it may require [00:17:00] different type of processes and tech stack is what I'm thinking right now. Um, my current company's approach is we don't like clearly level it as a PLG, but how we are approaching it is probably closer PLG that people, you know, come sign up for the tool.

We need to capture some data. We need to, you know, do the billing. We need to do the upfront, the cross sell, not cross sell, sorry, renewal, what have you, that kind of things. Um, so it's not necessarily always in a traditional or pre PLG type of, we need to talk to a human to get access to the tool and get the onboarding.

And, um, it requires a different, you know, I would say mindset.

Ivor: Um,

Kanako: Yeah. Um, and a process building and I really push on a process building the cross functionally [00:18:00] before even talking about what kind of tech stack pieces needs to be included. I mean, eventually we need these tech stack pieces. Don't get me wrong.

But the most important piece is what kind of experience we want to provide to the customers. And of course existing customers. For the, you know, in app experience, so to speak, but also what is the sign up process? What is the renewal process? The customer experience from the GTM perspective still is relevant points to consider.

Actually, it's more important, in my opinion. Um, yeah, so that's, that's what I'm seeing right now. And I've seen companies who are doing more or less PLG with, not so PLG tech stack, if it makes sense, or, or, uh, you know, the very common tech stack that have been, like, [00:19:00] specifically built for PLG, but using for PLG, and that works out.

Some companies use, you know, more, like, PLG specific tech stack. I mean, like, both works out, and I've seen both, both kind of things.

Ivor: Yeah. Interesting. So yeah, I completely agree. There's not a good process in place and, um, People aren't aligned across the organization as well. Then I think a lot of the tech and the tools are quite redundant, right? If they're not being used properly and used according to a process. So I want to switch gears a little bit and. Talk about a topic that everyone's talking about, of course, over the past couple of years, and that is AI. So AI in, in the workplace and also in RevOps, what kind of trends are you seeing there and how is it impacting you in, in your role as you know, RevOps pro and, and Guru. [00:20:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. Um,

Ivor: Yeah.

Kanako: topic, um, to follow and especially after this Inbound by HubSpot and Dreamforce by Salesforce happened and both of them announced this AI agent piece. Yeah, it's, it's getting somewhere for sure. But still, to me, um, the approach that Revolve should take is Still similar to the pre AI situation, too.

Like, it's just a piece of tool. Piece of technology. So, the first fundamental question we need to go after and really define cross functional internally, and by the way, document it, you know, because people always forget why we talk, is why are we getting this? And what kind of outcome are we going after, [00:21:00] right?

Everyone talks about, say, AI agent to support the support agent. Like, we could reduce the, you know, number of agents. Or we could, you know, improve the time to resolution. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, in a general, like, use case, you know. Perspective, but you're all probably has a specific programs to solve a specific things you want to do with a you need to nail it down first and figure out if a is the right solution.

So one example here is a my current company. We explore the option to, um, basically a I see why I don't know if it's a word, but bring in a I basically and support experience. Yes.

Ivor: Okay.

Kanako: We decided not to do it, at least for this year, because we [00:22:00] were not sure what would, what would be the reaction, what would it take from the customers who are submitting support inquiries.

So the tools are there. It looks, it looked promising. It would probably help us a little bit, but does it really cater our needs? You know that set the expectation we already set with customers around customer experience for that specific support channel. We were not sure. And also, does it really move any needle in the support metrics?

Not quite sure. Um, and it was also like a very specific use case for the specific channel, which wasn't the majority of the support inquiries like we so so there was like a few conversations that sure, it's called, you know, but [00:23:00] maybe we don't have a strong case to bring in yet. So we forego that, um, a I'm sure that for that specific piece.

on the side for the time being, you know, it's, it's also, you know, in conjunction with all other things happening in the company, like what are the major initiatives and then that specific piece, the AI use case for the specific sub set of support inquiries. Sorry, no back burner, maybe, but side burner, I call it that way on the side for now.

Um, so that's where that's, that's been my experience with bringing in

Ivor: yeah, that's super interesting. Just keep remained on, on, keep focused on your objective as a company. And does AI fit into that? And is it going to help you achieve your objective? And if not, then focus on other things that are going to move the needle there. Don't forget the basics of what you're trying to [00:24:00] achieve as a company.

And so just before we close the episode. I'd be interested to hear what you're focused on as we head out the year, and then we can come to your book recommendation for the next guest.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I'm focusing on optimizing the existing process. Like I said, you know, I want to build a process that would cover, say, 80 percent of tedious manual process piece so that the human brain can be catered for the 20 percent of important things. So that's like one like basically kind of like a high level theme.

I'm always carrying on with me And I have a lot to do. Um given that oh my gosh three more months left in this year. So I have so many things I want to fix under that theme. So wish me [00:25:00] luck. I will do work, but it's gonna be

Ivor: creeps up on you, doesn't it? We're pretty much at the end of Q3 now, so I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Kanako: Yeah Yeah, highlight is, anytime we release new things, that's not the end of the story, right? You know, we ship it, we need to make sure it keeps sailing that way. And it doesn't always keep sailing that way. You know, Ghost Dungeon, you know, there's something going on. There's always, always, like, something you didn't expect to happen.

Ivor: the

Kanako: like, anything, like, even like releasing new dashboard or something,

Ivor: the

Kanako: usually have to keep going back and then, you know, do the touch up, do the facelift, do the quick fix, that kind of thing. Um, and I wish I have not another magic wand, do you know, predict all the future hiccups and then bake it in from the first, you know, first [00:26:00] go, but sorry, I don't have a crystal ball.

So sometimes unexpected things happen and I have to patch these things up. So, yeah. Yeah, it's not always shipping, shipping, shipping new cool stuff and yes, type of thing. Yeah,

Ivor: land, is there? Um, so something we do to close every episode is we ask each guest to recommend a book for the next guest with a short reason why. And our most recent guest, from Time Doctor, he recommended It's quite relevant actually to what, to what you're focused on with PLG and that, um, area and that specific strategy.

He recommended the product playbook by Wes Bush, and he said it's really important and highlighted its significance due to the sharing of the psychology behind purchasing decisions and how aligning your brand with [00:27:00] that can make a real impact. So I'll share the link afterwards, um, to you and also to, to.

our guests as well. So Kaneko, what's your book recommendation for the next guest and a reason why?

Kanako: sure. My book recommendation. And actually before this call, we were talking next. Do I need to pick one? And

Ivor: one. I know it's hard. I know it's hard with all of them. Perhaps it could just be the one that comes first to mind or front of mind as I ask this question. But yeah, it's difficult. And also because

Kanako: sure. Yeah. And for the record, for who, I don't know, but I

Ivor: I'm also finding I haven't read the majority of them, so I'm adding each one to my book list, so my book list has really really grown quite a lot now, so adding five more I think will, um, give me a bit of overload. So yeah, just one piece can occur. [00:28:00] Okay.

Kanako: to pick the one, I would pick this book called RANGE. Um, hold on, what's the subtitle? I have the book here. Um, RANGE, Why Generative Triumphs in a Specialized World. This book was written by David Epstein, and he talks about the world has been, um, that, um, I would say the narrative in the world has been like, we need to, pick one area and go deep, we need to specialize, but there are the benefit to be generous.

And that resonated with me so well. Well, okay, what a record, another record. I haven't finished it. I'm halfway through, but so far it's, I'll say liberating maybe,

Ivor: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Kanako: been [00:29:00] quite different. And then, you know, going back all the way to the beginning of this talk, I didn't even come from ops or marketing and I started from totally different things.

Another fun fact, my undergraduate degree is even music. It's not even business, you know, so I'm going this way. And sometimes that kind of like interesting set of background kind of like comes together sometimes. And for that matter, I. Sometimes, you know, frame myself that I'm a translator to, you know, help people in marketing and sales and CS and product and finance, what have you.

And these business people versus technical people sometimes, like, you know, if you work in a big or salesforce team, maybe like full of like super technical people, you may need to bridge that gap between the business needs and [00:30:00] technical needs, that kind of things. Cool. You need to translate all these things.

But how can you do that kind of translation? It's this whole different

Ivor: that's

Kanako: background. Even outside of RebOps, even outside of GTM. And pull the analogy, pull the example, pull the reference. So that what we are trying to communicate can, you know, cross the line in a digestible manner for the recipient side.

Yeah. So this book has been very helpful for me to kind of like reassure that I'm doing the right thing for

Ivor: Yeah, I think having that,

Kanako: Maybe not for everyone, but at least for myself. Seems like it's working, so I keep

Ivor: having that generalist approach and understanding different types of roles and different types of walks of life, you know, different languages, different cultures, um, is, you know, really, [00:31:00] really impactful. And I think. Would be super helpful in the RevOps role because, you know, you're working across products and marketing and, and sales.

So thank you for that book recommendation. And I think it really wraps up this podcast. episode really well. And so thank you for tuning in to GTM Tales. Thank you so much, Kadeko, for sharing your experiences and your thoughts across RevOx. And if you're interested in any of these topics or want to be a guest, please Then please reach out to us and we will be looking for new guests over, the next weeks and next month.

So feel free to, to get in touch, um, with anyone within Omnithea. So thanks a lot for tuning in and speak to you next time.

GTM Tales: Kanako from Smarter X

Ivor: [00:00:00] So

hello everyone and welcome to GTM Tales.

As you will hopefully know by now, GTM Tales is a podcast about sharing the stories that have led to growth in B2B. And following on from the episode from Leon from Time Doctor, this is our fourth episode and today I'm really pleased to have Kanako. He's a RevOps guru  

Ivor: So Kanako, can you please, um, start with like a introduction and give us a bit of detail about your background. And I think before when we had the first chat, you shared how you transitioned from Japan to the US. It'd be really good to get that [00:01:00] context from yourself.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. Um, so yeah, I've been in the revenue operations roles over about 10 years already, but I actually started my career, the very first part of a career back in Japan, where I'm from. I started my career as a recruiter, fun fact. Um, and then I decided to go to the NBA. Where I started realizing that recruiting is actually sales and marketing.

That recruiting was all about having a certain process. To, to, you know, bring in the repeatable success in the recruiting and hiring practice, but also we are selling the dream, so to speak, the work and the great company, great industry, that kind of things, especially in Japan, we don't really switch jobs very much.

So it's like finding the right place to work is [00:02:00] very critical. I mean, think about it. If you spend eight hours a day. In a work environment, that's a one third of the day. If you walk into the wrong door, your life is. So yeah, you need to pick the right place to go. And I was very, um, happy to work in the recruiting to, you know, educate people that my industry is great place to work.

My company is the top, you know, best place to work, that kind of thing. And when I was in that role, I didn't really realize it, realize it. But when I was going through the MBA program, taking different courses, I started realizing that. Oh, I was actually doing sales in the marketing, actually a lot in the marketing too, and also recognize that there were a lot of operational processes behind the scene.

So that's where I started gaining interest in marketing and the sales in conjunction with operation. And since then rev ups.[00:03:00]

Ivor: Fun fact as well, for me, I actually started one of my first roles was in HR as well and recruiting and yeah, I saw that, um, comparison as well, instead of perhaps, uh, selling and talking about a product and the service of the business. You actually, the company is that product right in recruiting and you're presenting that to the candidates, which could be linked to, yeah, connected to a prospect, for example.

So yeah, that's, that's super interesting.

Kanako: Mm hmm.

Ivor: I'd be curious to dive into your current role now and yeah, what you're working on and how you perhaps approach. Go to market and one of the topics that I think was interesting that we wanted to dive into was the, um, managing data silos and preventing data silos.

So, [00:04:00] um, if you could give an introduction to what you do now, and then we can maybe dig into that and peel the layers back.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. So my current company is smarter X and we offer software solution for retailers and manufacturers around the data of the products that retailers carry on behalf of manufacturers that involves a lot of data piece and also from the GDM perspective. It involves a lot of database. Um, so that's where I, um, carry a lot of, um, weight in my work to make sure that we, um, we provide a good customer experience for both sides of the parties from like a data availability to complete their job, but also.

You know, complete our side of the job from, you know, having the product sign up all the way [00:05:00] to getting the billing done. You know, at the end of the day, we also need to make money as a company. So that, that whole journey for customer journey is where I'm overseeing right now. And yes, data silo. Um, I never seen the companies who say they don't have data silo.

So I really hope someone really fixed this problem, problem like this. But yeah, we, we like, like any other companies, we have data silo issue. Um,

Ivor: [00:06:00] Um,

Kanako: have resources allocated to You know, accommodate a data pipeline building. Um, so that's that's exact exact project.

I'm working on right now. Um, because right now I'm the one looking at the product data. Um, you know,

Ivor: Silence.

Kanako: and everything and then push the communication out. Look, this is not going to be sustainable. Like, what if I get hit by a bus tomorrow? Scratch that.

That's too negative. What if I win the lottery tomorrow that I don't have to work?

Ivor: I don't know.

Kanako: This company still needs to keep running. And I take a huge pride in that. I need to build a process and data architecture that runs without me. is what I'm trying to achieve here. Um, before I go too far tangent, I'm going to pause here.

Did I answer your question?

Ivor: and think [00:07:00] if you did get hit by a bus, I think there'd definitely be bigger problems. Outside of a data silos there.

I guess what I'd like to actually ask , what are the some common issues that you typically see Um, across data silos and how can they be prevented perhaps? And what's your experience with that?

Kanako: Yeah, the common data silos I've seen before, uh, I think the GTM part of the data set are becoming more consolidated. Well, we still have a lot to, you know, go. Obviously, like it's like between marketing and sales, for example, you know, marketing still tends to think about lead or users or that kind of like individual level while sales usually in a b2b thinks, you know, like a unit as company or [00:08:00] maybe department, you know, depending on the contract structure they are going after, but Not like individual level.

I mean, it's B2B, right? So that's, that's definitely one area, but still, I think We are getting to some level of alignment, um, between marketing and sales or sales in the CS for that matter. What I sometimes struggle is that GTM part of the data set may not have good focus product data because it's a comprehensive data.

Different database, right? Like salesforce and product. Yeah. So that may not really hooked up very well. And it's, I'm not just talking about data visibility and product data visibility into salesforce, but more about like fundamental level of like how these kind of like communicate each other and almost like how, how product data should be matched up to salesforce data, that kind of things.

That's definitely one. I don't think I've seen a [00:09:00] couple of times, and this is what I'm learning right now is.

Ivor: seed pods will

Kanako: You can data, especially the contract data at the end of the sales cycle, as well as a good entire journey of CS, financial management and finance data or accounting. Please, yeah, from accounting perspective, they may have a completely different way to see, um, how the invoice should be issued.

How the, you know. Um, account receivable needs to be resolved or what have you that kind of things And they may not completely align with how the sales CRM, you know account architecture is set up Yeah, the common thing is, Oh, yes, we have one contract,

Ivor: Go

Kanako: the two departments.

Ivor: them.

Kanako: could be one account, one contract, one account, one contract.

Invoicing [00:10:00] may be a little bit more granular in that sense. The other side of the house, more complicated thing that, um, again, I'm not finance person or finance ops person. So that's probably me, but when you may have multiple accounts or multiple contract, you know, say per department, but from accounting perspective, they may want to roll everything up under one big company umbrella, like that's where the definition of these comes in.

Like what is company in that database? Where is a car in this database? And then it's not just like how the data should be from technology perspective, how it can be connected, but how we want to see these. Cause you can show you that data architecture impact reporting, right? And then the data architecture impact how the data comes in, and that impacts eventually the human process piece as well.

So that's, that's what I [00:11:00] see, like, I'm not saying like, GTM part of the data silo having completely fixed, I wish that's the word, not yet. But now the GTM dataset is connected beyond the GTM piece. Or in ingesting data from somewhere other than GTM tech stack, the silo issue is becoming more and more, you know, bigger issue beyond GTM theme of beyond the

Ivor: And I actually think that issue of, um, the silos is probably going to continue to get worse. I mean, there are so many SAS applications nowadays, and it's never been easier to create a SAS platform. And so you've got all of these great applications that do such a great job for. A specific vertical. And that is something that we're seeing more [00:12:00] is, uh, the growth and the rise of more vertical platforms.

So not only for marketing, but for marketing teams in real estate, for example. And so I think there's. Issue might actually, um, begin to, to get worse. And it's interesting that you talk about these specific silos in GTM. And if I get, if I got this correctly in GTM and then product, and then also accounts, and so I guess that seems to be an issue that you're experiencing.

And what are you doing to actually solve that right now? So our listeners, if they're experiencing the same issues can, can learn from, um, yeah, your approach to that. Yeah.

Kanako: so I cannot do that. Um, [00:13:00] I think to me, it's, um, a bit of a trial and error. Yeah. And testing how everything works out. Um, yeah, so my current company smart X is very small and mighty nimble team.

So we don't always have, you know, all the resources from like, you know, human perspective to handle everything and to make everything, you know, top notch. And also we are startups, so we are evolving ourselves. So the process we may be, we may have built yesterday, you know, last quarter, or what have you.

may not be relevant anymore, or may need to be updated, so it keeps changing too. So, I always take the approach of, first, try with like, kind of like manual process to fully understand how it should work out, and then start, like, kind of like taking out what piece can be automated,

Ivor: [00:14:00] Okay.

Kanako: for the time being.

Ivor: uh,

Kanako: so that's the one area. So for that matter, you mentioned like a spreadsheet data staging previously, like I'm not.

Ivor: to

Kanako: against that approach. I would do it initially and start figuring out what kind of process, what piece of work can be automated with, say, 80, 90 percent of accuracy. What are the common outliers, exceptions? You know, how can we handle that kind of things? So our human focus goes into exception handling and something that are more difficult to automate.

For the V2 launch, V3 launch, and [00:15:00] then gradually we remove these human manual process elements out of the scope as much as possible. That's how I've been approaching it. Well, if someone else has a better approach, I'd love to learn that because, you know, I'm doing a lot of clicks.

Ivor: it makes sense. And yeah, I think in a, in the startup world, you're definitely not alone with being strapped for resources. And there's a famous quote from Paul Graham, one of the founders of Y Combinator, he said, you know, in the beginnings, just do things that don't scale. And I'm also a big believer in, I agree with slowly improving the process and automating parts of it.

And I think something that's super important for startups is to focus on solutions. If there are any out there that you're considering that are just very to set up and not only quick, but also, um, don't [00:16:00] take any resources from yourself to actually get started and, um, trial out. And you know, that way you could actually utilize and benefit from a bunch of different solutions with, um, a low risk, um, manner.

So speaking of strategies, um, let's talk a little bit. More about the shift towards products that growth, I believe you shared some insights there before, and I'd be interested to understand how product that growth has changed the way you approach GTM operations. Um, and yeah, share a little bit about your experience there and some growth stories would be great.

Kanako: Yeah, um, CloudG has been an interesting trend that I've been following. eyeing on, um, and, um, it may require [00:17:00] different type of processes and tech stack is what I'm thinking right now. Um, my current company's approach is we don't like clearly level it as a PLG, but how we are approaching it is probably closer PLG that people, you know, come sign up for the tool.

We need to capture some data. We need to, you know, do the billing. We need to do the upfront, the cross sell, not cross sell, sorry, renewal, what have you, that kind of things. Um, so it's not necessarily always in a traditional or pre PLG type of, we need to talk to a human to get access to the tool and get the onboarding.

And, um, it requires a different, you know, I would say mindset.

Ivor: Um,

Kanako: Yeah. Um, and a process building and I really push on a process building the cross functionally [00:18:00] before even talking about what kind of tech stack pieces needs to be included. I mean, eventually we need these tech stack pieces. Don't get me wrong.

But the most important piece is what kind of experience we want to provide to the customers. And of course existing customers. For the, you know, in app experience, so to speak, but also what is the sign up process? What is the renewal process? The customer experience from the GTM perspective still is relevant points to consider.

Actually, it's more important, in my opinion. Um, yeah, so that's, that's what I'm seeing right now. And I've seen companies who are doing more or less PLG with, not so PLG tech stack, if it makes sense, or, or, uh, you know, the very common tech stack that have been, like, [00:19:00] specifically built for PLG, but using for PLG, and that works out.

Some companies use, you know, more, like, PLG specific tech stack. I mean, like, both works out, and I've seen both, both kind of things.

Ivor: Yeah. Interesting. So yeah, I completely agree. There's not a good process in place and, um, People aren't aligned across the organization as well. Then I think a lot of the tech and the tools are quite redundant, right? If they're not being used properly and used according to a process. So I want to switch gears a little bit and. Talk about a topic that everyone's talking about, of course, over the past couple of years, and that is AI. So AI in, in the workplace and also in RevOps, what kind of trends are you seeing there and how is it impacting you in, in your role as you know, RevOps pro and, and Guru. [00:20:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. Um,

Ivor: Yeah.

Kanako: topic, um, to follow and especially after this Inbound by HubSpot and Dreamforce by Salesforce happened and both of them announced this AI agent piece. Yeah, it's, it's getting somewhere for sure. But still, to me, um, the approach that Revolve should take is Still similar to the pre AI situation, too.

Like, it's just a piece of tool. Piece of technology. So, the first fundamental question we need to go after and really define cross functional internally, and by the way, document it, you know, because people always forget why we talk, is why are we getting this? And what kind of outcome are we going after, [00:21:00] right?

Everyone talks about, say, AI agent to support the support agent. Like, we could reduce the, you know, number of agents. Or we could, you know, improve the time to resolution. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, in a general, like, use case, you know. Perspective, but you're all probably has a specific programs to solve a specific things you want to do with a you need to nail it down first and figure out if a is the right solution.

So one example here is a my current company. We explore the option to, um, basically a I see why I don't know if it's a word, but bring in a I basically and support experience. Yes.

Ivor: Okay.

Kanako: We decided not to do it, at least for this year, because we [00:22:00] were not sure what would, what would be the reaction, what would it take from the customers who are submitting support inquiries.

So the tools are there. It looks, it looked promising. It would probably help us a little bit, but does it really cater our needs? You know that set the expectation we already set with customers around customer experience for that specific support channel. We were not sure. And also, does it really move any needle in the support metrics?

Not quite sure. Um, and it was also like a very specific use case for the specific channel, which wasn't the majority of the support inquiries like we so so there was like a few conversations that sure, it's called, you know, but [00:23:00] maybe we don't have a strong case to bring in yet. So we forego that, um, a I'm sure that for that specific piece.

on the side for the time being, you know, it's, it's also, you know, in conjunction with all other things happening in the company, like what are the major initiatives and then that specific piece, the AI use case for the specific sub set of support inquiries. Sorry, no back burner, maybe, but side burner, I call it that way on the side for now.

Um, so that's where that's, that's been my experience with bringing in

Ivor: yeah, that's super interesting. Just keep remained on, on, keep focused on your objective as a company. And does AI fit into that? And is it going to help you achieve your objective? And if not, then focus on other things that are going to move the needle there. Don't forget the basics of what you're trying to [00:24:00] achieve as a company.

And so just before we close the episode. I'd be interested to hear what you're focused on as we head out the year, and then we can come to your book recommendation for the next guest.

Kanako: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I'm focusing on optimizing the existing process. Like I said, you know, I want to build a process that would cover, say, 80 percent of tedious manual process piece so that the human brain can be catered for the 20 percent of important things. So that's like one like basically kind of like a high level theme.

I'm always carrying on with me And I have a lot to do. Um given that oh my gosh three more months left in this year. So I have so many things I want to fix under that theme. So wish me [00:25:00] luck. I will do work, but it's gonna be

Ivor: creeps up on you, doesn't it? We're pretty much at the end of Q3 now, so I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Kanako: Yeah Yeah, highlight is, anytime we release new things, that's not the end of the story, right? You know, we ship it, we need to make sure it keeps sailing that way. And it doesn't always keep sailing that way. You know, Ghost Dungeon, you know, there's something going on. There's always, always, like, something you didn't expect to happen.

Ivor: the

Kanako: like, anything, like, even like releasing new dashboard or something,

Ivor: the

Kanako: usually have to keep going back and then, you know, do the touch up, do the facelift, do the quick fix, that kind of thing. Um, and I wish I have not another magic wand, do you know, predict all the future hiccups and then bake it in from the first, you know, first [00:26:00] go, but sorry, I don't have a crystal ball.

So sometimes unexpected things happen and I have to patch these things up. So, yeah. Yeah, it's not always shipping, shipping, shipping new cool stuff and yes, type of thing. Yeah,

Ivor: land, is there? Um, so something we do to close every episode is we ask each guest to recommend a book for the next guest with a short reason why. And our most recent guest, from Time Doctor, he recommended It's quite relevant actually to what, to what you're focused on with PLG and that, um, area and that specific strategy.

He recommended the product playbook by Wes Bush, and he said it's really important and highlighted its significance due to the sharing of the psychology behind purchasing decisions and how aligning your brand with [00:27:00] that can make a real impact. So I'll share the link afterwards, um, to you and also to, to.

our guests as well. So Kaneko, what's your book recommendation for the next guest and a reason why?

Kanako: sure. My book recommendation. And actually before this call, we were talking next. Do I need to pick one? And

Ivor: one. I know it's hard. I know it's hard with all of them. Perhaps it could just be the one that comes first to mind or front of mind as I ask this question. But yeah, it's difficult. And also because

Kanako: sure. Yeah. And for the record, for who, I don't know, but I

Ivor: I'm also finding I haven't read the majority of them, so I'm adding each one to my book list, so my book list has really really grown quite a lot now, so adding five more I think will, um, give me a bit of overload. So yeah, just one piece can occur. [00:28:00] Okay.

Kanako: to pick the one, I would pick this book called RANGE. Um, hold on, what's the subtitle? I have the book here. Um, RANGE, Why Generative Triumphs in a Specialized World. This book was written by David Epstein, and he talks about the world has been, um, that, um, I would say the narrative in the world has been like, we need to, pick one area and go deep, we need to specialize, but there are the benefit to be generous.

And that resonated with me so well. Well, okay, what a record, another record. I haven't finished it. I'm halfway through, but so far it's, I'll say liberating maybe,

Ivor: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Kanako: been [00:29:00] quite different. And then, you know, going back all the way to the beginning of this talk, I didn't even come from ops or marketing and I started from totally different things.

Another fun fact, my undergraduate degree is even music. It's not even business, you know, so I'm going this way. And sometimes that kind of like interesting set of background kind of like comes together sometimes. And for that matter, I. Sometimes, you know, frame myself that I'm a translator to, you know, help people in marketing and sales and CS and product and finance, what have you.

And these business people versus technical people sometimes, like, you know, if you work in a big or salesforce team, maybe like full of like super technical people, you may need to bridge that gap between the business needs and [00:30:00] technical needs, that kind of things. Cool. You need to translate all these things.

But how can you do that kind of translation? It's this whole different

Ivor: that's

Kanako: background. Even outside of RebOps, even outside of GTM. And pull the analogy, pull the example, pull the reference. So that what we are trying to communicate can, you know, cross the line in a digestible manner for the recipient side.

Yeah. So this book has been very helpful for me to kind of like reassure that I'm doing the right thing for

Ivor: Yeah, I think having that,

Kanako: Maybe not for everyone, but at least for myself. Seems like it's working, so I keep

Ivor: having that generalist approach and understanding different types of roles and different types of walks of life, you know, different languages, different cultures, um, is, you know, really, [00:31:00] really impactful. And I think. Would be super helpful in the RevOps role because, you know, you're working across products and marketing and, and sales.

So thank you for that book recommendation. And I think it really wraps up this podcast. episode really well. And so thank you for tuning in to GTM Tales. Thank you so much, Kadeko, for sharing your experiences and your thoughts across RevOx. And if you're interested in any of these topics or want to be a guest, please Then please reach out to us and we will be looking for new guests over, the next weeks and next month.

So feel free to, to get in touch, um, with anyone within Omnithea. So thanks a lot for tuning in and speak to you next time.